Underfloor / vloerverwarming / Fussbodenheizung

[blueznl]

I think Homematic might be a solution to a heating problem I have, but I've found on-line documentation a little hard to understand, to be honest
(there's some work to be done there still, especially for non-German speakers )

(For those wondering: I'm Dutch, and I can read German fine, it's just the writing I have serious troubles with , feel free to reply in German, that's most of the time not a problem)

I have a few questions to help me decide if I should spend the 500+ euro on Homematic or not. If someone could help me, please!

To be honest, this seems to be a rather straightforward setup of a combination of underfloor heating ('vloerverwarming') and wall mount radiator heating... But I'm new at this.

1 Situation

Here's my situation:

- Room 1 - ground floor - work area - underfloor heating system with its own pump
- Room 2 - ground floor - waiting area - regular wall mounted heating radiator, no floor heating
- Room 3 - first floor - kitchen and living area - underfloor heating system with its own pump
- Room 4 - top floor - sleeping room - regular wall mounted radiator, no floor heating
- Primary heat source is district heating ('stadsverwarming')

(Room1 and 3 both have floor heating systems but DO NOT share a pump.)


2 Hardware (I guess this is what I need )

Generic

- a CCU2
- a switch to open the district heating valve - 99082?

Room 1

- a 230V switch to control the pump for the underfloor heating - 130248?
- a wall thermostat - 83375 or 132030?

Room 2

- a radiator mounted thermostat for the wall mounted heating radiator - HM?

Room 3

- a 230V switch to control the pump for the underfloor heating - 130248?
- a wall thermostat - 83375 or 132030?

Room 4

- a radiator mounted thermostat for the wall mounted heating radiator - HM?


3. Rules

Generic

- if heat is needed anywhere the district heating valve should open
- if no heat is needed anywhere the district heating valve should close
- when the pumps aren't used (summer months) they should run once every 'x' hours

Room 1

- if heat is needed in room 1 (wall mount thermostat) the associated pump should run and district heating valve should open
- if there is no more heat needed in room 1 the district heating valve should close and the associated pump should shut down after 'n' minutes

Room 2

- if heat is needed in room 2 (radiator mount thermostat) the district heating valve should open
- if there is no more heat needed in room 2 the district heating valve should close

Room 3

- if heat is needed in room 3 (wall mount thermostat) the associated pump should run and district heating valve should open
- if there is no more heat needed in room 3 the district heating valve should close and the associated pump should shut down after 'n' minutes

Room 4

- if heat is needed in room 4 (radiator mount thermostat) the district heating valve should open
- if there is no more heat needed in room 4 the district heating valve should close


4. The questions... finally

- Do I actually need a CCU2? It seems the different units are able to work together without a CCU2, but descriptions on the website are vague (and the ones on Conrad's homepage are pretty hopeless). Note that I don't mind buying one, I actually might buy one regardless if that would simplify configuration, or allow other 'fun' things such as remote access.

- What is the difference between 83375 and 132030?

- Does the WebGUI work on an iPad, or is the app required? (I noticed that the app is relatively expensive whilst there seems to be a free app for Android... well, I've got both )

- What can be used to send INPUT from other sources to Homematic? Think about keypads, existing (mechanical / wired) door contacts etc.

- Is there any other party but Conrad that sells this stuff in the Netherlands?

[Onthefly]

Hi there,

your use case seems to be a perfect match for HomeMatic.

Generic
- a CCU2
- a switch to open the district heating valve - 99082?

I would definitely recommend the use of CCU.
Users are not that familiar with the Article code of HM Products; please use the short codes such as HM-LC-Sw4-WM instead.nPlease note that this module can switch only up to 1A (ohmsche Last), 42 VDC, 30 VAC. If your district valve is working @230VAC you may need a switch that is capable of switching mains 230VAC such as: HM-LC-Sw1-Pl, HM-LC-Sw1-SM, etc. If all three pumps are electrically accessible from a single spot, you may also consider 4 channel switching actuators such as HM-LC-Sw4-DR or HM-LC-Sw4-SM.

Room 1
- a 230V switch to control the pump for the underfloor heating - 130248?
- a wall thermostat - 83375 or 132030?

130248 or HM-ES-PMSw1-Pl is okay if you need to use a wall socket type of actuater AND you want to measure consumed power, current, etc. Otherwise you may also consider other variants such as: HM-LC-Sw1-Pl or HM-LC-Sw1-SM.
132030 or HM-TC-IT-WM-W-EU is the right one. The 83375 is the older discontinued model.

Room 2
- a radiator mounted thermostat for the wall mounted heating radiator - HM?

Need one HM-CC-RT-DN

Room 3

Pls refer to Room1 above.

Room 4

Pls refer to Room 2 above.

Your rules seems ok and easily implemented with HM.
In case of Wall thermostats and actuators, you may use so-called Direct Connections. The district heating valve may be operated by a CCU programme that activates the pump if there is actual heating demand.

The use of WebUI on iPad isnt that practical. Consider to use WebUI only for Administration purpose.
I would recommend using other Tools/Apps for your daily use. Please search for HM in Google Market or Apple Store.
Something worth looking at is the CCU.IO Framework that comes with a variety of different applications to cover your most needs.

Hope it helps.

Cheers,
OTF

[blueznl]

Thank you for your reply. I've been spending a bit more time and thinking, and found a few items I need to address, though none of them seem to be dealbreakers. Just a few questions more...

1. Besides switching the pumps on and off, do I also need to close the feeding valve to the floor heater distribution rail? Or is switching off the pump enough?

I've tested yesterday evening the impact of disabling the pumps but opening the district valve. It turns out there will be a continuous 7 l per hour 'leakage', ie. 7 litres per hour will pass through the floor heating piping or other radiator valves even with the pumps off (about 2%, when all two pumps are running on max, and one radiator is fully open litres will increase to 330 litres per hour).

However, this would only mean there's some minor heat being added to the floor when some other room or device requests heat. I might be able to address this by adding an additional valve, but that's probably not worth it: if some other part of the house needs some heating it's quite likely that the 2% is put to good use

Is it worth it to add that extra valve? Could my own code set that valve to a specific opening percentage?

2. I've got a routed floor heating system (ie. ol' fashioned embedded into the concrete) and the concrete heats up very, very slow, in the range of 0.5 to 0.75 C per hour.

I currently use a Chronoterm, which tries to anticipate 'overheating' ie. inherent swinging behaviour. It does a reasonable well job (max overswing has been 1 degree, but most of the time it's within 0.5 degrees). It does so by closing the valve some time before the 'go to' temperature has been reached.

A strict 'simple' approach would lead the Homematic system to overheat the floor, there doesn't seem to be a default 'software module' in the CCU2 that would support a PID or similar styled heating rule, or is there?

3. Having a quick peek at the scripts, I might be able to cook something up myself, but I would need access to some older temperature measurements. Is it possible to detect an increasing or decreasing temperature, and use a timer to limit the opening time of valve and / or running time of the pump?

4. This would require reasonable accuracy on the temperature sensors (at least .5 degrees but .2 or .1 would be better. How accurate are the temperature sensors?

5. And finally, what's the maximal distance between CCU2 and a radiator valve? (The farthest distance is a valve on the top floor (level 3) with the CCU2 on the ground floor (level 0), that's three floors of concrete, distance in a straight line approx. 10 meters.

[blueznl]

Well, I still could use some answers to the questions above, but I decided to go for it and order stuff...

[Onthefly]

Hi,

1. Besides switching the pumps on and off, do I also need to close the feeding valve to the floor heater distribution rail? Or is switching off the pump enough?

I've tested yesterday evening the impact of disabling the pumps but opening the district valve. It turns out there will be a continuous 7 l per hour 'leakage', ie. 7 litres per hour will pass through the floor heating piping or other radiator valves even with the pumps off (about 2%, when all two pumps are running on max, and one radiator is fully open litres will increase to 330 litres per hour).

However, this would only mean there's some minor heat being added to the floor when some other room or device requests heat. I might be able to address this by adding an additional valve, but that's probably not worth it: if some other part of the house needs some heating it's quite likely that the 2% is put to good use

Is it worth it to add that extra valve? Could my own code set that valve to a specific opening percentage?

If it is worth it, is e decision you need to make : )
Anyway, for the purpose of controlling a valve, I would recommend using a standard electrothermic valve drive (NC, Normally Closed) and control it via HM Actuator.
http://www.amazon.de/Buderus-kaMo-KTS-S ... ellantrieb

You can programme your CCU to open the district valve based on the status of radiator thermostats (i.e. Valve status) and actuators used for the pumps. If any Radiator-Thermostat Valve is opened >10% or any Pump Actuator is ON then switch the Actuator ON that controls the district valve.
You cannot set the valve opening % of the HM Valve drives directly; only the SET-Temperature is configurable.

2. I've got a routed floor heating system (ie. ol' fashioned embedded into the concrete) and the concrete heats up very, very slow, in the range of 0.5 to 0.75 C per hour.

I currently use a Chronoterm, which tries to anticipate 'overheating' ie. inherent swinging behaviour. It does a reasonable well job (max overswing has been 1 degree, but most of the time it's within 0.5 degrees). It does so by closing the valve some time before the 'go to' temperature has been reached.

A strict 'simple' approach would lead the Homematic system to overheat the floor, there doesn't seem to be a default 'software module' in the CCU2 that would support a PID or similar styled heating rule, or is there?

Just connect your HM Wall Thermostat with the Pump Actuator via "Direct Device Connection" and let HM do the work for you. HM Thermostats are self-learning devices that comes with best PID Functionality on the market. Give it few days to sync with your environment.

3. Having a quick peek at the scripts, I might be able to cook something up myself, but I would need access to some older temperature measurements. Is it possible to detect an increasing or decreasing temperature, and use a timer to limit the opening time of valve and / or running time of the pump?

Please refer to my answer to your point 2 above. Let HM do the work. You can still fine tune later.

5. And finally, what's the maximal distance between CCU2 and a radiator valve? (The farthest distance is a valve on the top floor (level 3) with the CCU2 on the ground floor (level 0), that's three floors of concrete, distance in a straight line approx. 10 meters.

Typically HM Wireless is way better than a standard WiFi network. If your WiFi works, the probability that HM works as well is almost 100%. Otherwise add another Wireless LAN Gateway on your 3rd Floor to extend the coverage.

Cheers,
OTF

[blueznl]

Thanks Onthefly. I must say I find the documentation very confusing. When I get home tonight I'll try to connect the wall thermostat to the pump actuator first. I guess I'll have to do that once for the ground floor (ie thermostat 0 to pump actuator (ie. Power switch) 0, and the same thing for thermostat 1 / pump actuator 1. Haven't got a clue right now how to do that but I'll figure it out

As for the district valve: I see what you mean... I'll post my results once I've had the chance to play a little more with the box...

[blueznl]

I've build a test setup on my desk, and it seems to work.

I found out I needed to replace most of the thermostatic valve bodies as the new Homematic valves won't fit on Comap bodies.. The dutch company Karwei sells them for approx. 12 euro / piece, so I picked up a few and just mounted them on the valves to avoid the dreaded F2 error while playing around

Current setup:

Ground Floor Waiting Room
- one radiator mounted valve HM-CC-RT-DN

Ground Floor Work Room
- floor heating (vloerverwarming)
- I left the protecting mechanical themostat and temperature switch in place
- added a valve HM-CC-RT-DN in the feeding line
- added a power switch HM-EW-PMSw1-Pl to control the pump

Note: the above might be replaced with a HM-LC-Sw4-WM and some extra electronics to control a regular floor heating valve and the pump, solving the extra run time for the pump outside the CCU2. I just didn't have the time yet to build something.

Utility Closet
- this is where the district heating valve is located
- used a HM-LC-Sw4-WM to open / close the district heating valve (stadsverwarming)

Direct Device Connections
- Ground Floor Thermostat -> Ground Floor Valve

Programs and CCU Connections

- Ground Floor Pump On

IF valve ground floor > 5% (trigger when updated)
THEN immediately switch pump on

Note: I also will need to add some logic to start the pump once a week for a few minutes when it isn't in use.

- Ground Floor Pump Off

IF valve ground floor < 5% (trigger when changed)
THEN delay by 5 minutes then switch pump off

Note: I had some serious problems combining the two above into a single program, it would just never switch off the pump. Splitting this up worked.

- District Valve

IF valve ground floor > 10% (trigger when updated) OR valve waiting room > 10% (trigger when updated)
THEN immediately switch district valve on
ELSE immediately switch district valve off

Note: delaying wasn't necessary, the system is slow enough as it is

I had a few ports left on the four port switch, so I used those ports to indicate the system status, just for testing and fun...

- Indicator Waiting Room

IF valve waiting room > 10% (trigger when updated)
THEN immediately switch on port 2
ELSE immediately switch off port 2

- Indicator Ground Floor

IF valve ground floor > 10% (trigger when updated)
THEN immediately switch on port 3
ELSE immediately switch off port 3

I now need to expand the above to include one more valve for the first floor, as well as one more valve for a bedroom. I think I have reached the stage where I can install the system as soon as the new valves are in.

[blueznl]

(I wonder, is this my new personal blog, or am I the only English speaker in here )

New valves ordered (as well as some other parts, for some future toying around with a DIY floor heating pump controller).

Minor code change, now supporting daily / weekly / whatever pump runs (15 minutes periodically, to avoid a stuck pump).

IF valve ground floor > 5% (trigger when updated) OR daily at 22:00 (trigger at point of time)
THEN immediately start pump

IF ( valve ground floor < 5% (trigger when changed) ) OR ( daily at 22:15 AND valve < 5% (check only) )
THEN stop pump after 15 minute delay

[dlw]

Hi Blueznl,

(I wonder, is this my new personal blog, or am I the only English speaker in here )

I suppose it does feel like a personal blog

I have't been on here for a while since I first setup my CCU2, 1x HM-LC-Sw1-SM, 8x HM-CC-RT-DN so relativlty easy compared to your setup but I am still learning things about the programming of the system and information in German and from the Germans is not that clear

Where have you been ordering your Homematic parts from? I used http://www.ehomeportal.de to start with and got some useful help from the owner on initial setup but recently I have used Amazon.de because I have prime membership and get free expedited shipping (adding lighting controls)

It seems that most of the users of Homematic can write and program the system with scripts which is fairly useless as I don't have the time to learn all of it.

I have tended to mainly use programs to set all my functions which consist of time controls for heating and even an 'IF' "AND" stopping my wife and family turning the thermostats upto max which will run the boiler constantly and use as much gas as possible when the room will never reach that temp

I am adding some EQ3 HomeMatic Funk Wandthermostat 132030 from amazon but not certain how to get them to work with my HM-CC-RT-DN but from what I have read (partly in you thread) I will have to make a direct connection between the two and then program them as I would normally.

If you need timing controls I have found today that groups seem to do what I have been doing with separate programs this may help you too.

Regards/Groeten

Darren