Smart heating - request for advice

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michalr
Beiträge: 1
Registriert: 12.11.2020, 22:20
System: in Planung

Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von michalr » 12.11.2020, 22:55

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and in general to the topic of smart-home, so please bear with me :)

I have a 2 function boiler - Saunier Duval ISOTWIN CONDENS F - which is currently managed by the wired thermostat (Exacontrol E7 C).
Using that thermostat, I'm able to set the heating schedule both for hot water as well as the warmth. The cable connecting thermostat with the boiler has only 2 wires on 24V.

Unfortunately, having 2 floors at my house and only one thermostat and, in addition, mixed setup of underfloor heating (water-based) and regular radiators, there's a lot to improve when it comes to climate control.

In order to do that, I was planning following purchase:
1. HmIP-MIOB
2. HmIP-WLAN-HAP
3. HmIP-VDMOT for floor heating valves
4. HmIP-FALMOT-C12
5. HMIP-WTH-2 to control the ground floor where it's basically an open space with a mix of radiators and underfloor circuits
6. HmIP-eTRV-2 for radiators on 2nd floor (there's no underfloor heating there) - I want to have individual control over each room.

Questions:
1. Did it miss anything? Does such solution make sense?
2. VERY IMPORTANT: is it possible to control the hot water function of my boiler with MIOB?
3. Do I actually need MIOB or would there be some more
4. Since I have only 6 underfloor circuits, I don't need 12 sockets offered by FALMOT-C12. Is there a smaller alternative that I could use?
5. Maybe there's some alternative to homematic solution that could be easier and more smart than the one that I came up with?

Thanks in advance for any advice! :)

krawiec
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: 05.05.2020, 11:45
System: CCU
Danksagung erhalten: 1 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von krawiec » 13.11.2020, 11:06

Hi,

I'm currently playing the same game but with different boiler and I will advise first to use CCU3 instead of Access Point.
The way how the homematic algorithms are controlling the valve opening is a little bit strange for me as it is using some small opening values which are not optimal for heating systems with individual boilers.
This systems seams to be optimised for heating systems with constant availability of heat in the system (like central heating in flats) so it can allow small flows to keep the temperature stable. In systems with boilers this is not working well as boilers have minimal power and it is not working well if the heat demand is below the minimal power.
The other problem that I'm fighting is the valve auto calibration for HmIP-Falmot-C12 and the valves. I have KAN Therm distributor for underfloor heating and some valves are starting flow around 8% of valve opening others around 13%... And just a small % above the minimum the flow according to my rotameters is "full". There is no way to calibrate this manually and this is the very big disadvantage of this systems. There should be a way to override automatic calibration by setting the % value of the valve when the flow starts (the new 1% let say). The same is for HmIP-eTRV-2 same small flows for systems with individual boilers just make no sense.

Regarding your questions:
>1. Did it miss anything? Does such solution make sense?
Use CCU3 not the AP.

>2. VERY IMPORTANT: is it possible to control the hot water function of my boiler with MIOB?
I don't think so, but it will depend on your boiler but my suggestion is to keep the existing way to control the hot water and use on/off terminals in boiler to control the heating function. I'm using Vaillant boiler and will keep current controllers (which control the temperature of heating water in function of outside temperature) to control the hot water function but set the heating function to continuous and control heating demand by on/off terminals

3. Do I actually need MIOB or would there be some more
I will use HmIP-WHS2 to control the on/off function of the boiler and the underfloor heating pump (will turn it of if there will be no heating demand from underfloor heating part).

4. Since I have only 6 underfloor circuits, I don't need 12 sockets offered by FALMOT-C12. Is there a smaller alternative that I could use?
If you want to use FALMOT there is no smaller version. You can use HmIP-FAL230-C6 and thermoelectric valve controllers but it consuming additional small portion of electric energy when heating and have a delay up to few minutes between open/close.

And one idea... use script to control the boiler not the automation included in homematic. I wrote some scripts to check the level of valve opening and if it is above certain level then start the boiler and pump.
You also need to keep in mind that the boiler and pumps should not be started if all valves are closed so either bypass in the system is needed or other way to be sure that at leas one valve is open in each heating circuit. In my system I have one radiator without controller (in bathroom) it is constantly open and the pump for underfloor heating is on only when at least one valve of FALMOT is open more than 15%.

Regards
Greg

samuellazea
Beiträge: 72
Registriert: 09.10.2018, 08:49
System: CCU und Access Point
Hat sich bedankt: 16 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von samuellazea » 13.11.2020, 13:35

krawiec hat geschrieben:
13.11.2020, 11:06
I wrote some scripts to check the level of valve opening and if it is above certain level then start the boiler and pump.
You also need to keep in mind that the boiler and pumps should not be started if all valves are closed so either bypass in the system is needed or other way to be sure that at leas one valve is open in each heating circuit. In my system I have one radiator without controller (in bathroom) it is constantly open and the pump for underfloor heating is on only when at least one valve of FALMOT is open more than 15%.
Hi Greg, is there any chance you could share the scripts that you say so we can use them as examples for our setups? I know that at least me is very interested in it :)
Thanks lots and much appreciated

krawiec
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: 05.05.2020, 11:45
System: CCU
Danksagung erhalten: 1 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von krawiec » 13.11.2020, 16:42

Hi,

I'm using two scripts one for underfloor heating and one for radiators.
Underfloor heating triggers:
ufh.png
And the script:

Code: Alles auswählen

string  deviceid;
integer valveopen = 0;
foreach(deviceid, dom.GetObject(ID_DEVICES).EnumUsedIDs())
{
    var device  = dom.GetObject(deviceid);
    if( ("HmIP-FALMOT-C12" == device.HssType()) )
    {
        string channelid;
        foreach(channelid,device.Channels().EnumUsedIDs())
        {
            var channel = dom.GetObject(channelid);
            if(("CLIMATECONTROL_FLOOR_TRANSCEIVER" == channel.HSSID()) )
            {
                var interface   =   dom.GetObject(channel.Interface());
                var datapoint   =   interface#"."#channel.Address();
                real    valvestate          = dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value();         
                if(valvestate > 0.1) 
                    {  
                       valveopen=valveopen+1;
                    }
            }
        }
    }
}
var Floor = dom.GetObject("Floor");
Floor.State(valveopen);
This script is counting the number of valves that are opened more than 10% and then putting this value to the system variable "Floor".
I'm using this variable to control the pump and boiler.

Similar script is for radiators and the trigger is the valve opening of the eTRVs:

Code: Alles auswählen

string  deviceid;
real    allvalvestate       = 0.0;
foreach(deviceid, dom.GetObject(ID_DEVICES).EnumUsedIDs())
{
    var device  = dom.GetObject(deviceid);
    if( ("HmIP-eTRV-2" == device.HssType()) || ("HMIP-eTRV" == device.HssType())  )
    {
        string channelid;
        foreach(channelid,device.Channels().EnumUsedIDs())
        {
            var channel = dom.GetObject(channelid);
            if(("CLIMATECONTROL_RT_TRANSCEIVER" == channel.HSSID()) )
            {
                var interface   =   dom.GetObject(channel.Interface());
                var datapoint   =   interface#"."#channel.Address();
                real    valvestate          = dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value();
                allvalvestate=allvalvestate+valvestate*100;
            }
        }
    }
}
var Radiators = dom.GetObject("Radiators");
Radiators.State(allvalvestate);
The idea here is a little bit different as all my radiators valves starts the water flow at 1% so I'm counting the sum of all valves and putting it into the "Radiators" system variable. If the sum is more than 10 - 15 then the boiler starts.

Greg

samuellazea
Beiträge: 72
Registriert: 09.10.2018, 08:49
System: CCU und Access Point
Hat sich bedankt: 16 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von samuellazea » 13.11.2020, 16:58

krawiec hat geschrieben:
13.11.2020, 16:42
Hi,

I'm using two scripts one for underfloor heating and one for radiators.
Underfloor heating triggers:
ufh.png
And the script:

Code: Alles auswählen

string  deviceid;
integer valveopen = 0;
foreach(deviceid, dom.GetObject(ID_DEVICES).EnumUsedIDs())
{
    var device  = dom.GetObject(deviceid);
    if( ("HmIP-FALMOT-C12" == device.HssType()) )
    {
        string channelid;
        foreach(channelid,device.Channels().EnumUsedIDs())
        {
            var channel = dom.GetObject(channelid);
            if(("CLIMATECONTROL_FLOOR_TRANSCEIVER" == channel.HSSID()) )
            {
                var interface   =   dom.GetObject(channel.Interface());
                var datapoint   =   interface#"."#channel.Address();
                real    valvestate          = dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value();         
                if(valvestate > 0.1) 
                    {  
                       valveopen=valveopen+1;
                    }
            }
        }
    }
}
var Floor = dom.GetObject("Floor");
Floor.State(valveopen);
This script is counting the number of valves that are opened more than 10% and then putting this value to the system variable "Floor".
I'm using this variable to control the pump and boiler.

Similar script is for radiators and the trigger is the valve opening of the eTRVs:

Code: Alles auswählen

string  deviceid;
real    allvalvestate       = 0.0;
foreach(deviceid, dom.GetObject(ID_DEVICES).EnumUsedIDs())
{
    var device  = dom.GetObject(deviceid);
    if( ("HmIP-eTRV-2" == device.HssType()) || ("HMIP-eTRV" == device.HssType())  )
    {
        string channelid;
        foreach(channelid,device.Channels().EnumUsedIDs())
        {
            var channel = dom.GetObject(channelid);
            if(("CLIMATECONTROL_RT_TRANSCEIVER" == channel.HSSID()) )
            {
                var interface   =   dom.GetObject(channel.Interface());
                var datapoint   =   interface#"."#channel.Address();
                real    valvestate          = dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value();
                allvalvestate=allvalvestate+valvestate*100;
            }
        }
    }
}
var Radiators = dom.GetObject("Radiators");
Radiators.State(allvalvestate);
The idea here is a little bit different as all my radiators valves starts the water flow at 1% so I'm counting the sum of all valves and putting it into the "Radiators" system variable. If the sum is more than 10 - 15 then the boiler starts.

Greg
nice nice. Thanks lots for all the detailed information. Reading now through them to understand them. Nice thing you did there ;)

oreste
Beiträge: 1
Registriert: 17.03.2021, 17:46
System: Alternative CCU (auf Basis OCCU)

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von oreste » 30.03.2021, 20:53

krawiec hat geschrieben:
13.11.2020, 16:42
Hi,

I'm using two scripts one for underfloor heating and one for radiators.
Underfloor heating triggers:
ufh.png
And the script:

Code: Alles auswählen

string  deviceid;
integer valveopen = 0;
foreach(deviceid, dom.GetObject(ID_DEVICES).EnumUsedIDs())
{
    var device  = dom.GetObject(deviceid);
    if( ("HmIP-FALMOT-C12" == device.HssType()) )
    {
        string channelid;
        foreach(channelid,device.Channels().EnumUsedIDs())
        {
            var channel = dom.GetObject(channelid);
            if(("CLIMATECONTROL_FLOOR_TRANSCEIVER" == channel.HSSID()) )
            {
                var interface   =   dom.GetObject(channel.Interface());
                var datapoint   =   interface#"."#channel.Address();
                real    valvestate          = dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value();         
                if(valvestate > 0.1) 
                    {  
                       valveopen=valveopen+1;
                    }
            }
        }
    }
}
var Floor = dom.GetObject("Floor");
Floor.State(valveopen);
This script is counting the number of valves that are opened more than 10% and then putting this value to the system variable "Floor".
I'm using this variable to control the pump and boiler.

Similar script is for radiators and the trigger is the valve opening of the eTRVs:

Code: Alles auswählen

string  deviceid;
real    allvalvestate       = 0.0;
foreach(deviceid, dom.GetObject(ID_DEVICES).EnumUsedIDs())
{
    var device  = dom.GetObject(deviceid);
    if( ("HmIP-eTRV-2" == device.HssType()) || ("HMIP-eTRV" == device.HssType())  )
    {
        string channelid;
        foreach(channelid,device.Channels().EnumUsedIDs())
        {
            var channel = dom.GetObject(channelid);
            if(("CLIMATECONTROL_RT_TRANSCEIVER" == channel.HSSID()) )
            {
                var interface   =   dom.GetObject(channel.Interface());
                var datapoint   =   interface#"."#channel.Address();
                real    valvestate          = dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value();
                allvalvestate=allvalvestate+valvestate*100;
            }
        }
    }
}
var Radiators = dom.GetObject("Radiators");
Radiators.State(allvalvestate);
The idea here is a little bit different as all my radiators valves starts the water flow at 1% so I'm counting the sum of all valves and putting it into the "Radiators" system variable. If the sum is more than 10 - 15 then the boiler starts.

Greg
Hi Greg,

Thanks for sharing your script. I've just finished to install the Falmot to control my floor heating system. I don't have any radiator. I'm wondering to know why you choose to count the number of opened valves more than 10% instead of sum the total valves opening value and use that value to trigger the on/off of the heater pump. In few words why you didn't apply the same strategy you choose for the radiators.

Thanks
Oreste

philip@boone.de
Beiträge: 1
Registriert: 26.06.2021, 12:32
System: CCU

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von philip@boone.de » 26.06.2021, 12:45

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the scripts. I hope they will help me to regulate my floor heating.

As you may know, (I mean as far as I know), it's not possible to directly control the motors (HmIP-VDMOT) connected to the HmIP-FALMOT in the CCU3 GUI or in a GUI Program. And, because you can only control one Motor with a direct link to a Thermostat like (HmIP-WTH-2) for example... the only other possibility to do what I need is to use a script... I hope :)

Because some of the rooms in my house have more than one Floor Heating Water Line (And because I dont want to have to buy one HmIP-WTH-2 per line), basically what I want to do is, use one HmIP-WTH-2 in a room to measure the temp. of that room. And then control the two or more motors for the lines in the room with a script. Is that possible?

I should be able to set the "dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value()" of the motors pertaining to the room.. right?

Thanks alot for your help

Philip

wutr
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 04.01.2020, 21:06
Hat sich bedankt: 1 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von wutr » 01.10.2021, 14:11

michalr hat geschrieben:
12.11.2020, 22:55
2. VERY IMPORTANT: is it possible to control the hot water function of my boiler with MIOB?
3. Do I actually need MIOB or would there be some more
The WHS2 has two independent channels. One could be used for hot water, the other for central/underfloor heating heat demand. However, I don't know much about underfloor heating. If you have more than one pump you're going to run out of channels on the WHS2 pretty swiftly if you use hot water also. You could possibly use multiple WHS2 but I have never tried that. And the MIOB doesn't support hot water.

druid
Beiträge: 6
Registriert: 26.09.2021, 22:22
System: in Planung
Hat sich bedankt: 1 Mal
Danksagung erhalten: 1 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von druid » 24.11.2021, 07:43

Hi Philip,
philip@boone.de hat geschrieben:
26.06.2021, 12:45
As you may know, (I mean as far as I know), it's not possible to directly control the motors (HmIP-VDMOT) connected to the HmIP-FALMOT in the CCU3 GUI or in a GUI Program. And, because you can only control one Motor with a direct link to a Thermostat like (HmIP-WTH-2) for example... the only other possibility to do what I need is to use a script... I hope :)
I'm fairly new to homeatic and the works, but imho this works very well.
I have connected my bedromm thermostat to 2 loops at the same time vie direct connection. Please be aware, that both loops will be controlled completely parallel. No hydraulic compensation is possible.
philip@boone.de hat geschrieben:
26.06.2021, 12:45
Because some of the rooms in my house have more than one Floor Heating Water Line (And because I dont want to have to buy one HmIP-WTH-2 per line), basically what I want to do is, use one HmIP-WTH-2 in a room to measure the temp. of that room. And then control the two or more motors for the lines in the room with a script. Is that possible?

I should be able to set the "dom.GetObject(datapoint#".LEVEL").Value()" of the motors pertaining to the room.. right?
Have you had any success with this ? I want to set the opening of the valve of the corridor dependent on temperatures of a different room or set for some valves, not controlled by thermostat, a specific open% value.

KR

Alex.

adarm
Beiträge: 6
Registriert: 21.11.2021, 09:26
System: CCU
Hat sich bedankt: 1 Mal

Re: Smart heating - request for advice

Beitrag von adarm » 03.12.2021, 10:03

wutr hat geschrieben:
01.10.2021, 14:11
michalr hat geschrieben:
12.11.2020, 22:55
2. VERY IMPORTANT: is it possible to control the hot water function of my boiler with MIOB?
3. Do I actually need MIOB or would there be some more
The WHS2 has two independent channels. One could be used for hot water, the other for central/underfloor heating heat demand. However, I don't know much about underfloor heating. If you have more than one pump you're going to run out of channels on the WHS2 pretty swiftly if you use hot water also. You could possibly use multiple WHS2 but I have never tried that. And the MIOB doesn't support hot water.
I don't know as I asked a similar question myself but are we able to connect the whs2 into HmIP-FALMOT-C12 and then you need to have a specific zone of heating you enable heat via WHS2 (fires boiler and pump) and the Zone you want heat to enabled in ( HmIP-FALMOT-C12) to get your desired output. if you have a short circuit you need to be careful that you arent just short cycling.

in my question, i have multiple radiator circuits so i was going to use the 240v version of HmIP-FALMOT-C12 and connect those outputs to the zonevalves on my rad circuits

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