Central heating control, need advices

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ip29
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: 14.01.2019, 12:06

Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von ip29 » 14.01.2019, 12:30

Hi,
I've been reading about homematic products for a couple of weeks now but as I don't speak german, and as google translate is not perfect, I still have a couple of questions.
My goal, as many people here, is to control my boiler and radiators. I plan to do this in three steps:
1/ buy homematic valves + window sensors and get these to work quickly without any kind of ccu
2/ buy a ccu2 or ccu3 or raspberry adapter (more probably the latest) and learn how to communicate with the devices bought for step 1
3/ control the boiler with the appropriate actuator

My questions are for step 1, I found two different solutions.
First I could buy as many starter kits as radiators I have to control: HM153413 https://www.homematic-inside.de/produkt ... terkontakt . Lets call this kit 1.
Or I could buy HM-CC-RT-DN + HM-Sec-SC-2. Lets call this kit 2

With kit1 or kit2 if I understood everything correctly I can use them without a CCU at first. However it is unclear if, without a CCU, I can use one window sensor to control several valves at the same time or control several valves with several window sensors.

Then, I don't want to ever have to rely on an internet connection to control my heating. With kit 2 and a CCU2/3 that will be possible, but as kit 1 is homematic-IP will I have to connect my ccu 2/3 to the internet ? If it's only a matter of a one time actuator registration that'll be fine but there is no way I'll accept to rely on an internet connection to program my radiators.

Finally, except for hypothetical internet connection requirement with HM153413, are there key differences between HM-CC-RT-DN and the valve used in HM153413 ?

Thanks a lot !

tomi_cc16
Beiträge: 572
Registriert: 30.11.2013, 16:35
Wohnort: Mordor

Re: Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von tomi_cc16 » 14.01.2019, 18:43

ip29 hat geschrieben:
14.01.2019, 12:30
My goal, as many people here, is to control my boiler and radiators. I plan to do this in three steps:
1/ buy homematic valves + window sensors and get these to work quickly without any kind of ccu
2/ buy a ccu2 or ccu3 or raspberry adapter (more probably the latest) and learn how to communicate with the devices bought for step 1
3/ control the boiler with the appropriate actuator
1. see below
2. If you just want to start you can now really cheap buy used CCU2 (sometimes not more than 30€).
Later backup from CCU2 to CCU3 / RaspberryMatic is no problem.
If you plan to make bigger projects buy directly a CCU3 or build a RaspberryMatic.
3. Here in the English Forum are already some boiler projects in detail described
ip29 hat geschrieben:
14.01.2019, 12:30
My questions are for step 1, I found two different solutions.
First I could buy as many starter kits as radiators I have to control: HM153413 https://www.homematic-inside.de/produkt ... terkontakt . Lets call this kit 1.
Or I could buy HM-CC-RT-DN + HM-Sec-SC-2. Lets call this kit 2
CCU / RaspberryMatic can talk both protocols HM (old) and HmIP (new).

If I would buy new things I would buy directly HmIP protocol products:
You can buy the Kit 1 set (HmIP-eTRV-B and HmIP-SWD)
https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/Of ... ic-ip.html

Or I would prefer kit 3: HMIP-eTRV-2 + HMIP-SWDO (looks better)

Kit 2 would also be possible but HM protocol
ip29 hat geschrieben:
14.01.2019, 12:30
With kit1 or kit2 if I understood everything correctly I can use them without a CCU at first. However it is unclear if, without a CCU, I can use one window sensor to control several valves at the same time or control several valves with several window sensors.
Good question - In CCU / RaspberryMatic you can easily create groups, so one ore more windows sensor can close one ore more thermostats.
Without CCU / RaspberryMatic you can for sure directy connect them but I think grouping could be hard.
But all products here should work directly without CCU / RaspberryMatic.
ip29 hat geschrieben:
14.01.2019, 12:30
Then, I don't want to ever have to rely on an internet connection to control my heating. With kit 2 and a CCU2/3 that will be possible, but as kit 1 is homematic-IP will I have to connect my ccu 2/3 to the internet ? If it's only a matter of a one time actuator registration that'll be fine but there is no way I'll accept to rely on an internet connection to program my radiators.
CCU don't need internet - you can use internet to add (teach in) new HmIP devices (HM don't need internet at all) to create the keys (it's easier) - but also complete offline teach in process is possible - see the WebUI manual that I translated.
Temporary internet is good to update the firmware of the CCU and devices from time to time.
ip29 hat geschrieben:
14.01.2019, 12:30
Finally, except for hypothetical internet connection requirement with HM153413, are there key differences between HM-CC-RT-DN and the valve used in HM153413 ?
Yes, at least the protocol
HM-CC-RT-DN speaks HM protocol
HM153413 (HmIP-eTRV-B and HmIP-SWD) speaks HmIP protocol.

Both work with CCU / RaspberryMatic - !!! but !!! you can not create mixed groups HM with HmIP.
You can only group HM with HM and HmIP with HmIP devices.

So it's recommended to stay per room in the same protocol.

See here for more general info - should answer 80% of all questions:
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=41325
Zuletzt geändert von tomi_cc16 am 15.01.2019, 01:45, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

ip29
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: 14.01.2019, 12:06

Re: Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von ip29 » 14.01.2019, 19:31

Hi
Thanks a lot for your detailed answer, it looks like I still have quite a lot of documentation to read :-)
The impossibility to mix HM and HMIP in the same group is good to know, indeed if HMIP is the future I should go this way.
I'll dig further into the homematic documentation you gave me and maybe ask more questions later.
Thanks again.

papperone
Beiträge: 26
Registriert: 14.12.2018, 23:07

Re: Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von papperone » 14.01.2019, 21:50

welcome ip29!
I've a very similar setup, with 12 radiators at home (3 floors) with some grouping for the bigger rooms...
I started with eTRV valves (the newest one which look nice and "modern") and one Hm-HAP which is temporary but it allowed me a very fast initial setup, and a quite good intergation with my home automation system based on Home Assistant server.
Now I'm testing the stability of my solution; NoderRed flow to monitor the status of the 12 valves and activate the circulation pump of my gas boiler when at least one radiator is above minimum threshold (4%) and deactivate it when all radiators are OFF (e.g. <= 4%)... so far so good!
Next step is to setup Raspberymatic server, move all the valves under it in order to avoid dependencies from cloud, and rebuild all automation in order to get to the very same results I've now (which is very nice and with a very high WAF - WifeAcceptanceFactor :D )

ip29
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: 14.01.2019, 12:06

Re: Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von ip29 » 14.01.2019, 22:00

Did you notice a significant drop in gas consumption compared to standard TRVs ?

papperone
Beiträge: 26
Registriert: 14.12.2018, 23:07

Re: Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von papperone » 14.01.2019, 23:35

I am not able to answer yet... as I wrote it's a quite new setup (I set it up roughly 1 month ago) so I cannot still make this comparision.

ip29
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: 14.01.2019, 12:06

Re: Central heating control, need advices

Beitrag von ip29 » 14.01.2019, 23:49

Ok thanks !


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